diff --git a/crates/effects/src/revolve.rs b/crates/effects/src/revolve.rs
index eb227300e0..e9d64864d0 100644
--- a/crates/effects/src/revolve.rs
+++ b/crates/effects/src/revolve.rs
@@ -1351,7 +1351,7 @@ mod tests {
         group.appearance = Appearance::basic(Paint::solid(Color::BLACK), Paint::None, 0.0).into();
         for id in [REVOLVE, crate::EXTRUDE] {
             assert!(crate::validate_three_d(&group, id, &json!({})).is_ok(), "{id} on the group itself");
-            let refused = crate::validate_three_d_at(&group, id, &json!({}), Some((0, 0))).unwrap_err();
+            let refused = crate::validate_three_d_at(&group, id, &json!({}), (Some(0), 0)).unwrap_err();
             assert!(refused.contains("on the group itself"), "{id}: {refused}");
         }
     }
diff --git a/crates/effects/src/solids.rs b/crates/effects/src/solids.rs
index 3031228e32..e20dbdba17 100644
--- a/crates/effects/src/solids.rs
+++ b/crates/effects/src/solids.rs
@@ -250,33 +250,50 @@ pub fn validate_solid(n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value) -> Result<(), String> {
 /// [`validate_solid`] with the symbols of `doc`: a symbol instance, a blend and a clipping group
 /// build from the art they show ([`resolve`]).
 pub fn validate_solid_in(doc: Option<&Document>, n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value) -> Result<(), String> {
-    validate_solid_for(doc, n, id, p, None)
+    validate_solid_for(doc, n, id, p, (None, None))
 }
 
-/// [`validate_solid_in`] for the effect on the object (`item` `None`) or on its appearance item
-/// `item`, whose shadow is cast by that item's solid alone.
-fn validate_solid_for(doc: Option<&Document>, n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value, item: Option<usize>) -> Result<(), String> {
+/// [`validate_solid_in`] for the effect at `(item, index)`: index `index` of the effects of the
+/// object (`item` `None`) or of its appearance item `item`, whose shadow is cast by that item's
+/// solid alone. The index is the effects' length for a new effect. The solids are checked as
+/// [`solid_art_in`] draws them: from the shapes after the geometry effects before the 3D effect.
+/// On the object (or group) with `index` `None`, that effect is its first visible Extrude & Bevel,
+/// Inflate or Rotate, as drawn, or a new one after its other effects when it has none.
+fn validate_solid_for(doc: Option<&Document>, n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value, at: (Option<usize>, Option<usize>)) -> Result<(), String> {
     validate_solid_params(id, p)?;
     if let Some(doc) = doc {
         graphics::validate_symbols(doc, p)?;
     }
     let label = label_of(id);
     let n = &*source::resolve_for(doc, n, label, is_plane(id))?;
+    let effects = &n.appearance.effects;
+    let index = match at {
+        (None, Some(index)) => index,
+        _ => solid(effects).map_or(effects.len(), |(index, _)| index),
+    };
+    let before = effects.get(..index).unwrap_or(effects);
     if is_container(n) {
-        let shapes = members(n, label)?;
+        let mut shapes = members(n, label)?;
+        reshape_members(n, before, &mut shapes);
         let b = union_bounds(&shapes).ok_or_else(|| format!("{label} requires a group holding a shape with at least two anchors"))?;
         shapes.iter().try_for_each(|s| facets(id, &s.path, s.rule, b, p).map(|_| ()))?;
         check_solids(id, p, &shapes)?;
         return cast_shadow(id, p, &shapes).map(|_| ());
     }
     let (path, rule) = object_profile(n, label)?;
-    let b = path.bounds().ok_or_else(|| format!("{label} requires a shape with at least two anchors"))?;
-    facets(id, &path, rule, b, p)?;
+    let anchors = || format!("{label} requires a shape with at least two anchors");
+    path.bounds().ok_or_else(anchors)?;
+    let ctx = GeomContext::of(n);
     // With its shadow on, the shadow of the object's solids (or of the item's) must fit too.
-    let items = match item.and_then(|i| n.appearance.items.get(i)) {
-        Some(item) => vec![item.clone()],
-        None => solid_paints(n),
+    let (path, items) = match at.0.and_then(|i| Some((n.appearance.items.get(i)?, at.1.unwrap_or(usize::MAX)))) {
+        Some((item, index)) => {
+            let path = geometry(&path, effects, &ctx);
+            (geometry(&path, item.effects().get(..index).unwrap_or(item.effects()), &ctx.item(item)), vec![item.clone()])
+        }
+        None => (geometry(&path, before, &ctx), solid_paints(n)),
     };
+    let b = path.bounds().ok_or_else(anchors)?;
+    facets(id, &path, rule, b, p)?;
     let shapes = [Profile { path, rule, items, opacity: 1.0, scopes: vec![] }];
     check_solids(id, p, &shapes)?;
     cast_shadow(id, p, &shapes).map(|_| ())
@@ -468,26 +485,28 @@ pub fn validate_three_d_in(doc: Option<&Document>, n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value
     if crate::revolve::is_revolve(id) { crate::revolve::validate_in(doc, n, id, p) } else { validate_solid_in(doc, n, id, p) }
 }
 
-/// [`validate_three_d`] for an effect at `(item, index)`, index `index` of the effects of
-/// appearance item `item` of `n` (the effects' length for a new effect), or on the object itself
-/// when `at` is `None`. A Revolve on a fill or stroke is checked in that item's paint, after the
-/// item's geometry effects before it, together with the object's other items that carry a Revolve.
-/// A group's or layer's fills and strokes take no 3D effect: only the group's own effect draws.
-pub fn validate_three_d_at(n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value, at: Option<(usize, usize)>) -> Result<(), String> {
+/// [`validate_three_d`] for an effect at `(item, index)`: index `index` of the effects of
+/// appearance item `item` of `n`, or of the object itself when `item` is `None` (the effects'
+/// length for a new effect). An Extrude & Bevel, Inflate or Rotate is checked on the shapes after
+/// the geometry effects before that index. A Revolve on a fill or stroke is checked in that item's
+/// paint, after the item's geometry effects before it, together with the object's other items that
+/// carry a Revolve. A group's or layer's fills and strokes take no 3D effect: only the group's own
+/// effect draws.
+pub fn validate_three_d_at(n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value, at: (Option<usize>, usize)) -> Result<(), String> {
     validate_three_d_at_in(None, n, id, p, at)
 }
 
 /// [`validate_three_d_at`] with the symbols of `doc` ([`validate_solid_in`]). A symbol instance, a
 /// blend and a clipping group take a 3D effect as groups do: on the object itself.
-pub fn validate_three_d_at_in(doc: Option<&Document>, n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value, at: Option<(usize, usize)>) -> Result<(), String> {
+pub fn validate_three_d_at_in(doc: Option<&Document>, n: &Node, id: &str, p: &Value, at: (Option<usize>, usize)) -> Result<(), String> {
     graphics::validate(id, p)?;
     match at {
-        Some(_) if is_container(n) || source::resolves(n) => {
+        (Some(_), _) if is_container(n) || source::resolves(n) => {
             Err("A 3D effect on a group or layer goes on the group itself, not on its fill or stroke".into())
         }
-        Some((item, index)) if crate::revolve::is_revolve(id) => crate::revolve::validate_item_of(n, id, p, item, index),
-        Some((item, _)) => validate_solid_for(doc, n, id, p, Some(item)),
-        None => validate_three_d_in(doc, n, id, p),
+        (Some(item), index) if crate::revolve::is_revolve(id) => crate::revolve::validate_item_of(n, id, p, item, index),
+        (None, _) if crate::revolve::is_revolve(id) => crate::revolve::validate_in(doc, n, id, p),
+        (item, index) => validate_solid_for(doc, n, id, p, (item, Some(index))),
     }
 }
 
diff --git a/crates/effects/src/solids/tests.rs b/crates/effects/src/solids/tests.rs
index 935cfd26e4..b4e012f977 100644
--- a/crates/effects/src/solids/tests.rs
+++ b/crates/effects/src/solids/tests.rs
@@ -450,6 +450,45 @@ fn a_fill_and_strokes_together_past_the_limit_draw_the_source() {
     assert!(solid_art(&n).is_none(), "the source art draws");
 }
 
+/// The check builds the solids from the shapes the art draws them from: after the geometry effects
+/// before the 3D effect, on an object, on its fill and on a group. Copies a Transform effect before
+/// it makes that take the solids past the limit fail the check, as the art then draws the source.
+#[test]
+fn the_check_counts_the_faces_after_the_geometry_effects_before() {
+    let mut alone = polygon_node(1, 16_384);
+    alone.appearance.effects.push(fx(EXTRUDE, json!({})));
+    let [Ok(Some(each))] = solid_faces(EXTRUDE, &alone, MAX_OBJECT_FACES)[..] else { panic!("one solid") };
+    // Side by side, each copy builds the same solid.
+    let copies = |k: usize| fx("distort.transform", json!({"moveH": 30_000.0, "copies": k}));
+    for (k, fits) in [(1, true), (MAX_OBJECT_FACES / each, false)] {
+        let mut n = polygon_node(1, 16_384);
+        n.appearance.effects = vec![copies(k), fx(EXTRUDE, json!({}))];
+        assert_eq!(validate_solid(&n, EXTRUDE, &json!({})).is_ok(), fits, "on the object, {k} copies");
+        assert_eq!(solid_art(&n).is_some(), fits, "on the object, {k} copies");
+        let mut f = polygon_node(1, 16_384);
+        f.appearance.items[0].effects_mut().extend([copies(k), fx(EXTRUDE, json!({}))]);
+        assert_eq!(validate_three_d_at(&f, EXTRUDE, &json!({}), (Some(0), 1)).is_ok(), fits, "on the fill, {k} copies");
+        assert_eq!(solid_art(&f).is_some(), fits, "on the fill, {k} copies");
+        let mut g = Node::group(NodeId(9999), vec![Arc::new(polygon_node(1, 16_384))]);
+        g.appearance.effects = vec![copies(k), fx(EXTRUDE, json!({}))];
+        assert_eq!(validate_solid(&g, EXTRUDE, &json!({})).is_ok(), fits, "on a group, {k} copies");
+        assert_eq!(solid_art(&g).is_some(), fits, "on a group, {k} copies");
+        // A new effect goes after the copies.
+        let mut new = polygon_node(1, 16_384);
+        new.appearance.effects = vec![copies(k)];
+        assert_eq!(validate_three_d_at(&new, EXTRUDE, &json!({}), (None, 1)).is_ok(), fits, "a new effect, {k} copies");
+    }
+    // A hidden effect checked at its own index counts only the effects before it: copies after it
+    // copy the drawn art once it is shown again.
+    let mut hidden = polygon_node(1, 16_384);
+    let mut extrude = fx(EXTRUDE, json!({}));
+    extrude.visible = false;
+    hidden.appearance.effects = vec![extrude, copies(MAX_OBJECT_FACES / each)];
+    assert!(validate_three_d_at(&hidden, EXTRUDE, &json!({}), (None, 0)).is_ok());
+    hidden.appearance.effects[0].visible = true;
+    assert!(solid_art(&hidden).is_some());
+}
+
 /// At no volume Inflate's front is flat: turned, the fill's cells are all drawn before the stroke's,
 /// whatever their depths, as the extrusion's caps are. When the fill puffs, a stroke too narrow to
 /// puff on the grid stays flat and keeps its depths: the fill's puff is drawn over its far side.
diff --git a/crates/engine/src/cmd/effectcmd.rs b/crates/engine/src/cmd/effectcmd.rs
index 72a72e6411..02cbecae1d 100644
--- a/crates/engine/src/cmd/effectcmd.rs
+++ b/crates/engine/src/cmd/effectcmd.rs
@@ -457,9 +457,10 @@ pub(crate) fn apply(s: &mut Session, p: &Value) -> Result<Value> {
         for (target, at) in targets.iter().copied().zip(item.per_target(s, &targets)) {
             let d = &s.doc()?.doc;
             let n = d.node(target).ok_or(EngineError::NoNode(target))?;
-            // A new effect goes after the item's others.
+            // A new effect goes after the item's (or the object's) others.
             let on = at.and_then(|at| at.effects_item(&n.appearance, C).ok()).flatten();
-            let on = on.and_then(|i| Some((i, n.appearance.items.get(i)?.effects().len())));
+            let on = on.and_then(|i| Some((Some(i), n.appearance.items.get(i)?.effects().len())));
+            let on = on.unwrap_or((None, n.appearance.effects.len()));
             effects::validate_three_d_at_in(Some(d), n, id, &effect.params, on).map_err(|e| bad(C, e))?;
             if let Some(name) = effects::missing_symbol(d, &effect.params, None) {
                 return Err(bad(C, format!("no symbol named `{name}`")));
@@ -772,7 +773,7 @@ fn set_params(s: &mut Session, p: &Value) -> Result<Value> {
                 return Err(bad(C, format!("no symbol named `{name}`")));
             }
             if visible != Some(false) {
-                effects::validate_three_d_at_in(Some(d), n, to, &prospective, target.map(|item| (item, index))).map_err(|e| bad(C, e))?;
+                effects::validate_three_d_at_in(Some(d), n, to, &prospective, (target, index)).map_err(|e| bad(C, e))?;
             } else {
                 // Hidden, the effect draws nothing, so its object need not fit. The values given are
                 // checked, and after a change of 3D type so is every value it keeps.
diff --git a/crates/engine/src/cmd/effectcmd/graphics.rs b/crates/engine/src/cmd/effectcmd/graphics.rs
index 1801c83492..3365a1b764 100644
--- a/crates/engine/src/cmd/effectcmd/graphics.rs
+++ b/crates/engine/src/cmd/effectcmd/graphics.rs
@@ -131,7 +131,7 @@ fn map_graphic(s: &mut Session, p: &Value) -> Result<Value> {
             graphic.scale = frame.fitting_scale(art);
         }
         let params = effects::with_graphic(&effects::merged_params(&effect.id, &effect.params), &graphic);
-        effects::validate_three_d_at_in(Some(d), n, &effect.id, &params, item.map(|i| (i, index))).map_err(|e| bad(C, e))?;
+        effects::validate_three_d_at_in(Some(d), n, &effect.id, &params, (item, index)).map_err(|e| bad(C, e))?;
         edits.push((id, item, index, graphic));
     }
     let first = edits.first().map(|(.., g)| g.to_value());